INTERVIEW WITH JOEL KLETTKE ON HOW TO WRITE A COPY THAT CONVERTS – EVERY TIME
Andrew : Hey Joel so let me tell you guys I’m sort of jumping in here but anyway again this is Andrew welcome to masters in e-commerce and entrepreneur today I got Joel Klettke, the infamous and famous Joel, is an amazing copywriter. He’s basically a master of conversion and copywriting he is featured 0n call to action conference better yet, the guy basically is the consultant for some of the top SAAS and b2b platforms not to mention HubSpot multibillion-dollar company helping them with their copy on that side he’s a founder of the case study buddy which is really awesome by the way I thought you know it’s really great concept there because so many people have problems with case studies, in the past he was an SEO consultant no longer does that and then he’s been seen like, I said on the Unbounce conferences and, also conversion XL the guy loves hockey, loves beer and he’s one of those lovable Canadians. Right! so today we’re going to be talking about, how to write copy that converts which is I think near and dear to most people’s heart if you’re doing stuff with either its SAAS base or you’re doing e-commerce and you’re doing chatbots and everything you just need to know how to do copy and so Joel really awesome thank you for showing up if I had missed anything go in the audience and we can take it from there.
Joel : No I was pretty extensively said really focused on b2b and software I’ve had the privilege to work with some really cool companies and some really great projects spun off case study buddy about two years ago and it’s all kind of productized service and its own thing but I continue to do my consulting stuff as well and even know the hockey pit which, I’m really excited cause the seasons starting in just a couple of weeks so typical Canadian but yeah I really talked about that for sure.
Andrew: No I know when I used to go up there to Vancouver I mean it was like anywhere you turn there was hockey, it’s awesome but yeah it’s the whole tree up there, it’s like baseball that’s how that’s really awesome so hey, so that’s getting to talking about copy that converts. right like what makes you know let’s break it down into I mean even an LP kind of stuff I guess you could be talking, I mean you did a really amazing article that I had just found was reading about the seven great sales marketing insights you know you can get from one customer interview but let’s break it down into like what is copy how do you write good stuff how do you even come up with, if you’re not a good copywriter can anybody actually write good copy?
Joel: Yeah that’s a lot to unpack so, I think the first thing you know well let’s quickly define for people when we’re talking about what is copy? we’re talking about the content you put out there, we’re not talking about let’s say blog posts and e-books and those types of assets what we’re gonna talk about today is mostly things like websites landing pages situations where that copy needs to get somebody to do something whether that’s sign up for a demo whether that’s purpose a thing whether that is download an asset whatever it may be we’re talking about copy that’s intended to drive an immediate action we’re trying to get somebody to do something so I think one of the biggest misconceptions one of the things that people outside of copy kind of think to themselves is that it’s this sort of like voodoo black magic and there are tricks and you know like anytime the word persuasion comes in you know people start thinking its mind control and those types of things but the heart of it is really high converting copy and when writing high converting copy is as much a product of your ability to talk to customers and break down data and information as it is to take that information and then weave it into something worth reading you can’t be a great conversion copywriter if you’re not a great researcher you can’t be a great researcher if you don’t know what to look for and so a lot of my work over the past few years has been helping people understand well what do we go look for and how do we start kind of building but getting the blocks we need to build this great piece of copy.
Andrew: Right so the on the research side of things like so what does that work wire to research to be able to write that good copy.
Joel : yeah and I mean research isn’t a sexy where W goes man I love research so whenever I start talking like I see it kind of retreat into their shell but what I’m talking about it’s really just a matter of you know to put it a sexier way getting into your customers head do you can’t write high converting copy in a vacuum you have to understand your customers so there’s four things I tell people when you’re going to write high converting copy there’s four things you need to learn about your customer you need to deeply understand their pain points so the things the problems the challenges they have the underpinning kind of fears about those their anxieties so the things that might keep them from taking action sort of the fears that make up their situation right now and what external pressures are on them so we got pain points without anxieties you often know their desired outcome so what is the big goal what is the big dream what is it they want to accomplish and that helps you frame up well what are the pains and anxiety isn’t getting there and then the last one that a lot of people miss is their priorities so not all priorities created equal I might want to solve a problem but certain features or certain aspects or certain decision criteria are going to be more important for me than others the last thing so those are the four things about your customer you definitely need to understand the last thing is their awareness level though so beyond those traits about them you need to understand those traits but you also need to understand where they are along the spectrum when it comes to that purchase so when you go in through research you have to talk to customers because you want to learn all that stuff in their own words so you can take those words mirror it back to them and that’s how you get them going on these people understand me they’re saying the things that resonate with what I want what I need the worst way to try to give you a converting copy is to huddle around a boardroom table and say okay we’ve got this let’s be really creative yes convert and copy writing copy is a creative pursuit but it is an analytically driven creative pursuit you can’t just huddle around be creative not talk to anyone.
Andrew: Right! Right! so if you are so if you’re doing this would you say that it’s like for like a SAAS based company or if you have like a website that was selling camping gear and lots of different things can you write creative copy and sales copy for individual products I mean like to get around that pain point of what people are looking for .
Joel : Totally because it all comes down to the customer so think about it this way no matter what you sell whether it’s tents whether it’s a downloadable PDF on how to get a date whether it’s a subscription to a magazine doesn’t matter you’re always trying to influence somebody to make a decision not trick them not pull the wool over their eyes you’re trying to pull the levers inside of their brain that make them go this is safe this is what I want this is for me this is going to deliver the outcome that I came for and so it really does come down to whether it’s someone looking at a tent well what is it they want that tent for what are their criteria and that’ll change based on who that person is what they intend to use it for what’s the big outcome are they going to use it for their family are they gonna use it to scale Everest you need a good understanding of that person and that audience in that use case so it really is something that can apply to anything from you know the traditional stuff we think of in direct response like pills and supplements and that type of thing the stuff on the polar opposite end of the spectrum consumer goods and really you know manufacturing even choosing which a vendor to go with for example so there’s no place that coffee can’t be made more effective or can’t be used to help influence a decision.
Andrew: Right! and do you think you need to be a copywriter per se or could an average layman person kind of write it is once you have that base foundation of knowing your customer and their pain points that they’re going through could anybody write?
Joel: I think it’s like anything in that you anyone can do it it’s the door is open to all-comers but it’s not going to be the type of thing a common you know hole that I see even experienced copywriters fall into is they try to make it all about formulas so formulas are addictive because they sound like roadmaps and so I use formulas every good writer uses formulas but if formulas are all you see and you start trying to treat copy like a fill in the blanks and just write this year a little that there that’s where things start to fall on their face so it is a practice it is something that you’re going to have to devote some serious time to learning and a lifetime to mastering if you want to master it but I do firmly believe that business owners the average marketer if they want to get better at it it’s absolutely within reach you just have to be open to the fact that this is a process this is a science it’s not just like you’ve seen on Mad Men drinking whiskey and waiting for inspiration they’re gonna have to sharpen some skill sets and they’re gonna have to put stuff out there and see how it does and I think that’s the last thing I’ll say on this is that’s the thing I think keeps a lot of people who are good from becoming great is they never publish it they never put it out there they’re unwilling to look at the date of how it performs so they either assume they’re great and they’re not great or they assume they’re awful and they don’t see how okay if I had changed this or if I studied that this is how it could get better so it’s open to everyone but it is a practice it’s not easy I don’t want to you know undersell the difficulty of it but it’s also not rocket science it’s communication and you can learn to decay better no matter who you are.
Andrew: Right so if you are starting out Right so you’re a brand new stash company or a product company and you want to launch this stuff and you don’t have customers Right to pull data from to kind of find out who they are and the pain points how do you go about that like how do you go and research people that yeah that you could talk to.
Joel: Yeah! it’s a brilliant question so the thing that I liken it to is it’s like a snowball you start with it you have a push push and over time you learn more and more but you should drop your how to say well we don’t know anything so we can’t read think that’s true because people even your product exists or not people are always looking to solve problems yours is just maybe a different or new way of doing it and so you want to look at well who else is in the space is in keeping in mind that your competitor might not be another SAAS product might not be another ecommerce store so for example let’s look at a company like headspace that offers online meditation prior to them what did people do they went to yoga studios they bought self-help books they bought you know videos and different things like that to help them so when those guys watch it wasn’t a matter of looking on sit okay we have no customers they went back to the source and they went what is the original problem and so there’s little hacks little tricks can do to kind of point you in the Right direction if you have established competitors who are similar you go read their reviews and read how people talk about them and talk about what they like and especially talk about what they don’t like because if you understand what people don’t like about your competitors you can position yourself against it another hack that I learned from Joanna Wiebe who learned it from the month before her is go to Amazon and look at the other complementary products someone might use to solve the problem and again go look at the reviews and sort them by most helpful though seedy again when people talk about a product that was useful to them how do they talk about how do they talk about their result the other thing is just getting out there and happening you don’t need a huge number of customers when I say survey customers or any customers people often think a we need 2,000 customers we need this huge client base to do this you can learn a lot in just one to three meaningful conversations okay have a meaningful interview with someone and ask them about not their opinion but their experience so when they have this problem what did you do to solve it what did they like about that how could that be bad and that’ll start pointing you in the Right direction when you establish your baseline now you’ve got that little snowball and as you learn to get more customers you can push push-push and gain momentum it get better and better it’s an evolving constantly evolving thing.
Andrew: Right! Right! Right! yeah those are good things so once you take on NLP do you think that you know does that help in writing understanding you hypnotize your coz you know you’re here members I mean in a sales thing and writing copy I mean what’s your take on that stuff that’s just big hype.
Joel: you know to be honest with you, yeah I mean I came into so bad I’ll back up to step come Right back that is when I came into the industry I was did being in conversion copy anything that remotely resembled direct response copy for a long time because I thought that what this was this like black and that kind of thing and so it wasn’t until I realized that no like all of that stuff has its place but you know for me like NLP I’ve kind of looked at it I think there’s some you know relevance to it I think that there is value if you look at for example you know like interactions the great people to study for something this are door-to-door salesmen especially if there are people in your city that go door-to-door selling power you’ll find yourself agreeing stuff you know electricity bill you’ll find yourself a greenie stuff you never thought you would because of the way they talk about it so there’s some value there I think it all needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt I mean we are biological creatures with you know tapes that flit up and switch in our heads but the mistake I think people make is looking at that as the ultimate shortcut or if I just learn this piece I don’t have to learn the rest of it it might be a tool in the tool kit it’s not the be-all end-all and I think you have to be skeptical of a lot of it but expose yourself to it learn and bake what you know to take what you like from it bring it into your work and continue on.
Andrew: Right yeah because I think that’s a lot of stuff that I see up there is that you know, and you know do you surround yourself with good copywriters I mean do you do you learn from other copywriters from that that are sort of mentors of yours?
Joel: I think there are both mentors and then equally valuable to me and maybe even more valuable to me have been peers so I’m part of like I was part of Juana weaves first mastermind and would consider her a mentor we never had an official mentor mentee relationship it was never like a structured thing other than when I was in that mastermind but I do study people who have proven they can do it proven they can get results you try to learn from them their process not just their words but their process and how they got there but for people who want to get better at copy B so whether you’re a marketer who does a little bit of copy whether you call copy or full-time job surround yourself with you know peers is really important so there’s a group on Facebook called the copywriter Club and there are people of all skill sets in there and they freely share and they discuss what they’re doing there are masterminds so Joanna, again she continues to put stuff out that gets my highest recommendation I’m not affiliate, I don’t make anything by saying that but I just know she knows her stuff so there are people you know find somebody who has proven they can do it and that’s what I would kind of finish that thought by saying is there’s a ton of people offering copy writing courses saying they meant to you whatever be skeptical be very skeptical anyone can call themselves look for proof look for numbers look for actual client projects, not somebody who took someone else’s course and now they’re selling the same information without actually having you know to do the work look for people who’ve learned to chew the steak not just sell the sizzle but yeah peers mentors constantly learning because as I mentioned earlier it’s just you’re always evolving .
Andrew: So, what’s your take on long burst short copy these days I mean do you think long copy is dead or is it still kind of really like it’s still alive and kicking.
Joel: Yeah! I love this argument because the honest truth of the matter is this is a prime example of people wanting a formula they want it to be black and white they want short to be rather than long or long to be better than shorter the honest truth the best way to think about this is in terms of awareness level so let’s say that we’re sitting at a restaurant you and I are having lunch and I just happen to be a floss salesman now if you already know and understand the benefit of floss which I hope you do then my sales pitch to you would just have to be hey you’ve got something in your teeth I’ve got floss it’s 50 cents off it costs a buck and that would be all I’d have to say you short copy cause you’re very aware you already understand your pain you already understand your outcome they already understand what you want to get out of this but let’s imagine you’d never heard of floss before now the conversation has to go something more like this I have to say hey you’ve got something in your teeth now you might be tempted to use a toothpick but before you do you should consider floss and here’s why floss can get into the crevices it’s not pointy and will give you splinters in your gums it tastes like peppermint it’s delicious so you can see those for me to convince you who’s never heard a philosopher I have to say more because I have to lead you on a natural mental journey to be comfortable making that decision so when it comes to long versus short work to identify how much your customer already knows how where they actually are and the less they know the more you say the more they know the more you just show them the deal and as always tested but the whole concept that you know we’re scanners now and we have the attention span of a goldfish and nobody reads it’s just patently false that’s just not true people do read they do invest time the trick is you have to engage them and most people suck at that which is why people think long coffee fails.
Andrew: Is that right so if you’re doing like so say if you’re running Facebook ads or creating ads you’ve got your initial code audience kind of people right and then you’ve got your retargeting kind of thing so you know on those do you if you are selling a product does it need to be cut well I guess it goes back to like how much the person knows about your product and then if they did click over to your website you know or – to the ad or whatever and then they engage would you write short or copy like how would you go about that you know in terms of copy.
Joel: Oh yeah! this is something I’m actually working on Right now so we’re working on finally launching some ad campaigns for K steady buddy and our strategy is exactly that for somebody who’s never heard of us never visited the site coming in called our Facebook ads are going to be a little bit longer they’re gonna dig more into how you can use case studies and that type of thing that we know we need to communicate to somebody who’s on the fence once we’ve seen that they’ve met an engagement threshold and we’re retargeting them now it just becomes about the deal so we’re no longer trying to convince them the efficacy of case studies we’re no longer trying to interest them or explain what we do our retargeting ads are literally saved this much or here’s the deal or here’s the discount if you act Right now so for those running Facebook campaigns you can think of it in terms of that so if if someone’s brand-new to you they’ve never heard of you they haven’t heard your offer yeah test out some longer copy first say a little bit more if you’re confident they’ve read and engaged with your website or landing page or your ad that’s when you can follow up with something shorter more like a nudge than a sermon
Andrew: Right! and do you find like local businesses on like doing Facebook ads versus like a product company of doing like national you can write shorter or longer or does it it’s the same principle I guess for like I if it’s a restaurant or an exercise studio or something like that.
Joel: Yeah! it always comes down to what’s the awareness level of your audience how much do they already understand about their pain how much do they already understand about the solutions that are out there to what degree have they already shaped their preferences and to learn those types of things you can look at lots of different avenues so for example if you’re targeting an audience that again you know they’ve never engaged with you then you can assume they’re probably a little bit less aware but if your target audience has never engaged with you but you know for example based on their facebook interests they’re deeply aware of the fitness space and they’re deeply aware of let’s say you’re selling a dissolution you know they know what the keto diet is because they’ve liked you know people who share that a lot or they know a lot about you know kettlebells because they they’ve recently made a person whatever maybe you want to try to assess based on their behavior whether that’s the search queries the type of search queries that bring them in to your site whether that’s the people that follow the things they already have stated they liked you want to try to assess what they already know so you can take them on a journey from there kind of an annulled duty to help viewers with this is imagine that they’re carrying a suitcase and to take them on a journey from where they are now to purchase you need to help them pack that suitcase so if they come with a bunch of biases you need to unpack those put new information in and come with you if they’re already fully packed you just got to tell them where to go and pop up the Right direction so try to understand through research what’s in their suitcase talk to people to figure where they’re at and in structure ads accordingly.
Andrew: Correct and what about like do you do you think do you have your own like swipe files like things that you find copy mail that you get things like that to kind of keep you like it took oh I’ll call back on when you when you when you’re stuck in things like that.
Joel: Yeah! I mean the nice thing is now that a lot of people have curated different online swipe files so there’s a site I can’t remember the name of off the top of my head they’ve curated a lot of new launched you know SAASs companies and so I’ll go there often for inspiration to see what I like or what it’s home with me I’ll also if I get a particularly compelling piece of mail I might save that scan that put my computer if I come across you know a case study from another writer that I know and they said hey we did that and it did really well I might save that there’s sense like good UI dot org where they make a point of going out and collecting test results other people have run so definitely I keep us might file the danger again is to start treating your sweat file like a short you know a brainless shortcut where you just fill in the blanks on someone else’s work Eugene Schwartz talks about this in his you know years back book called breakthrough advertising but that filling in the blanks it doesn’t work because that person presumably if they did their job Right they took the time to understand that niche that situation and so the reason their headline worked was because they had an understanding so they’re good as a reference point they’re good for inspiration they’re not good as a color by numbers you know roadmap to conversion but absolutely collecting a swipe file is a great way to give yourself new ways of thinking about things and new ideas.
Andrew: Right! so do you so you know Claude Hopkins the longtime copywriter? right way back I mean do you find that his stuff is still relevant to what today’s copy is I mean maybe tweaked a little bit but not like I mean what’s your thought on those types of things there are old-time copywriters?
Joel: Yeah I mean you know communication channels change technology changes you know the offers might change but, people don’t really change that much the way we make decision is the way we rationalized the way that we respond to communication it doesn’t really change and so that’s why you can take lessons from someone like, Claude Hopkins you can take lessons from somebody like Eugene Schwartz and they’re still relevant today Right because it’s not so much about the actual ads they were writing it’s not so much about the mediums they use those are always gonna have and flow and flux yes use your brain and you know try to weigh up something against what’s current but fundamentally what you can learn from those guys is their process and the way they thought that through and if you can pick that up that’s timeless .
Andrew: Right so on the process side of things Right so what you know you’re starting out you’re trying to write something like how long I mean obviously you can’t give an exact time prison because it’s no problem but like what would you say like an average you should think about from doing a research piece to writing to this like if you are just starting I’m not a copywriter such as yourself but for the average person Right to do this I want to say, Joe, because it’s you know we can run into biases here so the average person ?
Joel: yeah sure I mean I think people would be shocked to learn especially those who have never seriously devoted time to getting this stuff Right when I have a client and I’m writing a website it’s not uncommon for me to spend an entire week on a sales page like all eight hours of every single day working on one sales page it’s not uncommon for you know at the same time once you’re really proficient so if you look at a copywriter like Bell Geisler she can you can book her for a day she can put together you know a six-step email series for you and it’ll go gangbusters it’ll convert really well she’s gotten to the point where she’s so specialized and so good at breaking down what’s what works for SAAS and what’s not working for you that she can put together a test worthy series really, really quickly so I would say rather than fix editing on is this taking me too long this is taking me to short focus on am i following a process that overtime is good make me more efficient and gonna make me faster at doing this and gonna open me up to you know being more proficient on things like headlines but realizing to that copywriting it’s as much in analytic laws as creative pursuit and if you take coffee seriously there aren’t gonna be days where your brain is just not there and that’s why sometimes it can take all units it’s just not coming and that’s okay you know you just go back to the work you keep working the process in it and it will come but yeah it really varies so I would say as somebody brand new you’re probably too fast because you don’t know any better fast then I’ll take you a long time and then you’ll get you know you’ll come back to a place of being able to turn out something really good pretty fast I mean the other factor is how much of a correct perfectionist you are Right that slows things so you have to get the poetry like you know what at some point you just got to launch this and test it and see how it does .
Andrew: Right! Right! so on the test thing that’s I think that’s the key is you know write a headline see how that goes Right the body copy see how that goes what’s your feeling on email today you still think does it convert very well I mean obviously if you’re messaging there but I mean what’s your thought about that compared to like you know a messenger you know facebook messenger or type of messaging and getting people into that funnel .
Joel: yeah emails still super powerful it’s still when you have a captive audience it does the job I think it’s never been you know busier than it is today I think more and more companies are where everybody’s vying for that inbox space which you know if you’re the bakes if you’re good at that stuff then you’ve got some job security for a while because it’s not getting less effective people aren’t just gonna stop using email next year Right for all the stuff that’s come and gone you know like we use slack more often to communicate and you know people are touting chat bots are going to be the death of the landing page and all this stuff and that may be true we’ll see where technology takes us like you said channels change but email is still especially for things like onboarding for software products especially for things like abandoned carts for e-commerce email is still an incredibly powerful tool and not to write off and say well it’s toast it’s too busy we can’t stand out no you still can you just have to go about it the Right way so it’s still a super important channel .
Andrew: Right yeah and I think I’m the chatbot side of things I think people on that side of things I mean you might incur with this I think I think the key is that you can’t take what you typically do with your email and put it into your chatbot I mean I think the copy would you say that the copy would be different to engage a customer through a chatbot series of things .
Joel: yeah I would say so because the expectation is different in the same way that you know if I was selling to you on the phone I wouldn’t go read off my you know my sales page it’s just it’s not a natural way of communicating it’s not a reasonable expectation for you to sit there and listen to me rattle off 6,000 words so I think again so much of being a good copywriter comes down to having situational awareness not just at the customers we’ve already talked about you know quite a bit but also them at that moment so for something like chat what becomes hugely important is speed how fast can I get them the answer how easy can I make this how simple you know can i word things so that they move and move and move and it feels conversational so a ton of it just comes down to understanding what are the expectations for that channel and that’s where light bulb moments happen like the minute that people realize that when do most people check their email for example when they’re in bed leaning over the side with the phone in their hand that’s when a lot of people start their day with email so you know little situational awareness things like that once you’ve got that in your head it gives you the ability to navigate that channel differently and better than people are just trying to hammer on it over and over again .
Andrew : Right! Right! awesome yeah well Jill vest has been really amazing stuff I mean the dollars that you dropped on this thing it’s really super important and I think that that’s it gives an insight of like how you kind of get your head around copywriting what you need to do so the research the process and like he said coming back to that like I mean I’m sure you probably have done it where you write a copy he’s taken you know whatever daybreak come back and go, man, I gotta change this or edit that kind of stuff Right I’m on that so let me ask you so on your side of things like what tool do you use you know in your daily life may be one or two that is you know super helpful and in trying to get your process in place and for writing .
Joel: Yeah! so on the research front there’s a whole toolkit and the great thing is super accessible sometimes free and super reasonably affordable so to start collecting some meaningful qualitative data I love type form for running surveys fantastic mobile experience you can use logic jumps to segment customers in different ways so type forms fantastic hot jar is kind of a tool of choice when it comes to heat maps and recorded user sessions one of the most powerful things you can learn to do to improve your copy is to watch how people actually engage with real sites and real copy where do they stop what do they pay attention to what do they skip past so type form hot jar both really valuable I love drift for chat looking at chat logs can be a fantastic way to surface kind of people’s anxieties what questions is your copy not answering what things are they asking over and over again in that real time medium that maybe you could bring back into your site things like Google Analytics are great for seeing how people behave on a site which is really valuable and then for the copy itself so if you just want little tools to make your copy itself stronger Grammarly gets talked about a lot but it really is a lifesaver even great writers struggle with things like commas and you know punctuation and different you know Spelling’s and that type of thing so you know that that can really make things seamless there so there’s a whole lot of different tools both on the research and the writing front and then the last one I’ll mention it’s one we all know and love and have free access to is Google Docs so for sharing copy between groups and soliciting feedback that can be a brilliant tool and I said that was last one but the actual last one is balsamic so if you want to write really good copy you got to learn to wireframe you got to learn how the interplay between design and copy works and just because you write something great if it’s designed poorly it won’t get read so balsamic is a really accessible way for you to start creating wireframes and sort of laying out skeletons so that you can see for yourself how it would flow on a page so that was a lot but those are all .
Andrew: yeah that’s pretty interesting because I you know I know balsamic is a wireframing tool for product management type of things, but you can use that as a copy too huh I never even thought about using a balsamic as it is a way to write copy with it?
Joel: yeah every single draft so I actually don’t even write my drafts in word anymore when I’m preparing something for a client I put together a wireframe of the sales page or the landing page not emails it’s not what the protocol for emails but if I’m doing something for a site I always mock it up in balsamic first send it across as a PDF to them because in my case I actually don’t want to make it easy to edit I’d rather have discussion and then I’ll send a video of myself talking through the landing page so I’ll do a screen share of me talking through and explaining here’s why I did this this way here’s why this section is here Right and that way when you’re evaluating as a group worth of client you’re looking at it through the same point of reference it’s not just well I don’t like this word I don’t like that word it’s more like the mentality and the way it was done.
Andrew: A way that cool awesome so now that brings us up to so when you’re not like dominating the coffee space where do you think people where people can bump into that and get a hold of
Joel: Yeah! Yeah! so I’m super active on Twitter at Joel Kluttke, if you send something to me on their odds are really good that I’ll respond so that’s probably the best place you can kind of chase up on once in a blue moon when I find time to publish something businesscasualcaviar.com I kind of saved my best stuff for there I go to a few conferences throughout the year so coming up will be a Content jam in Chicago which is a brilliant if you want to get better at copying content it’s a must go if you can still get tickets it’s a fantastic conference so you know I’m at a few events throughout the year Twitter I’m really accessible LinkedIn super accessible not as accessible on Facebook but if you do want to go that road look for the profile with the purple shirt that’s the Right one to add not the other one and I do kind of engage on there and try to be active on there I share a fair bit of stuff on there but Twitter and LinkedIn are probably the best places to see what I’m up to and see what I’m polishing lately.
Andrew: Awesome great well Joe thank you so much for your time a lot of great knowledge guys hook up with Joel he’s awesome if you need copywriting go to him the case study everything and appreciate it and I hope to have you back.
Joel: Yeah cheers really appreciate it being on and have a good week to come.